Today on the Brandaide Podcast:

JP McAvoy [0:01]

"What does their exit look like?" The sooner you start planning that means to an end, thinking about what the exit looks like, the better the likelihood of it being successful.

Intro [0:15]

Welcome to Brandaide where we answer the question, what does it take to launch your own brand (R)evolution, create Evolution, and who are the people that help you foster Connection, Community, Contribution, and Currency for a Brand built to last? You will also meet brands changing the world and the lives of those they serve. Here's your host, Cheryl Hodgson.

Cheryl Hodgson [0:04]

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Brandaide podcast. I'm your host Cheryl Hodgson. Today I welcome JP McEvoy, who is an attorney from Ottawa, Canada, who also practices law with ConductLaw in Canada and the United States. And JP is the Founder and Managing Partner of ConductLaw, he practices corporate and commercial law. And he's also a business consultant, and he acts for clients buying and growing and selling their businesses. And we are going to have so much fun in this conversation today JP, because we've had the opportunity and the privilege to not only meet before but have some discussions, and our audience is going to learn so much because your brand is about being the Millionaire's Lawyer and you help businesses grow their companies to sell them at a good price. Is that a fair statement?

JP McAvoy [1:30]

That's a very fair statement. Cheryl. Thank you, first of all for having me on the show. And it's wonderful to be working with you here as well, because as you say, we've done some wonderful things in the past before. The Millionaire's Lawyer is just that. I've been a lawyer for many business owners who have grown and sold their businesses. I've helped them sell their business for six, seven figures. I've even worked with people who've become billionaires as they've grown and sold their businesses. So certainly, some of the lawyer-proven strategies to help people grow. It became a moniker of mine and things that I work and help people to do if they're interested in duplicating for themselves as well.

Cheryl Hodgson [2:04]

So what have you learned over the years in working with somebody when you get to witness client growth from startup or small to that exit strategy of the eight figure business and beyond? Is there some special sauce that each one has or is there a theme?

JP McAvoy [2:22]

No, there is a secret sauce. I think it's an entrepreneur, right? There's an entrepreneurial spirit. You see that in entrepreneurs that are able to build and grow businesses, they all have a different mindset. We talked with people who are employees, and there's nothing wrong with employees, obviously, all businesses thrive with employees. But there's an entrepreneurial mindset that's different, that is a creator, that is somebody that is looking to build something maybe different or a legacy in a way that an employee might not. An employee punches out at the end of the day, where an entrepreneur, they never sleep. They're always dreaming about what the next phase is going to look like for their business. And so that's the one thing I see consistent from business owners that really make it is that they're relentless in their pursuit of their goal.

Cheryl Hodgson [3:03]

And it's got to be fascinating to have that experience. Because I know I've had that as an attorney with my own clients. When it's not litigation, when it's a business client, right? Which makes that more rewarding, I think to be part of that.

JP McAvoy [3:17]

You see their energy and you feed off it yourself.

Cheryl Hodgson [3:19]

So what is your secret sauce and what do you contribute to that entrepreneurial journey?

JP McAvoy [3:25]

I think one of the big things that I contribute is, I give them a ramp for taking off. And I say that in a way I've worked with entrepreneurs and early in my career as a lawyer and you know as an attorney, you have training to look for problems. And you look at problems and things tend to get bogged down in problems sometimes. As an attorney, this work has really grown, I realized, it's not a question of finding the problem. It's finding the solution, giving them the ability to leapfrog to where they need to get to. A lot of business owners, as I've seen them, they might have that energy we described or the mindset, but a lot of times they're quite disorganized. And as an attorney, you can come in and sort of look to see where the disarray is, and give it some structure. And as I say, I call it a ramp, like a platform for the launch. Really important to accommodate the growth if an entrepreneur is to be successful.

Cheryl Hodgson [4:09]

That's a great way to put it. Because I think one of the challenges for a startup and do you work with startups as well?

JP McAvoy [4:16]

I do. There's more frequently established businesses, but on occasion and especially if it's somebody that's got a history of doing successful startups, they might come to see me earlier in the process as well. So traditionally, there's something that's a bit of a following. But certainly from the beginning, if I can get my hands on it, I'll be there to help.

Cheryl Hodgson [4:31]

I asked that because I know that sometimes the real startup they really don't even know what they need. They don't even know where the entrance to the ramp is, as far as how to really go about it. So I think that having someone like you is really quite valuable. You have a book that's come out or is coming out very soon, The Millionaire's Lawyer.

JP McAvoy [4:51]

Yes, How to Grow and Sell Your Business for Maximum Profitability. So it's what we're describing just here. And in it I give a series of examples of business owners I've worked with and talk about some of the experiences I've had with them, and some of the secret sauce, what you describe as the secret sauce, but some of the secrets that I've learned by watching and helping them grow. So I detail in those books and give an example of some, when I say some entrepreneurs, some entrepreneurs that have gone on to become billionaires. For example, one of the first that I say is the time I worked with Elon Musk and his brother Kimbal Musk, the first company that they started and saw that grow. And subsequently the different companies I've launched since.

Cheryl Hodgson [5:24]

How do you help people in your process to grow and exit a company for successful amounts?

JP McAvoy [5:33]

As a corporate lawyer, the key thing is the structure of the company itself, because they don't know what they don't know. Right? So they might come in, and they might realize they don't have things structured for the growth. So that growth and a proper structure will allow the introduction of new shareholding and people to help finance things because you need a legal structure to allow you to do it and you need to have it built on a platform that will allow other people to participate in it. So one of the first things I do is look at the structure of the company, make sure it's organized for growth.

Cheryl Hodgson [6:01]

You and I've talked a little bit about this in the past, because I obviously have a specialization in soft IP and I've worked as an intellectual property lawyer for years. But in your experience, do IP and a brand go into the value of a business when it comes time to sell or exit?

JP McAvoy [6:17]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely It does. Depending on how we have things structured, we may have a separate company that's licensing technology. But if the idea is to sell the IP as well, then certainly it's an asset, and anything that's been patented, or anything is proprietary, that's been protected, is going to be of great value to a purchaser and they'll look at it accordingly. They'll decide what they're going to pay for it based on the value of the assets. And IP will be one of the important assets of purchasing.

Cheryl Hodgson [6:39]

You just mentioned something I think was interesting, I don't want to just gloss over it. We're talking about a separate company that would license the technology. Could you give me an example of when that would be of value? That you could use that as a tool?

JP McAvoy [6:51]

Absolutely. So a lot of times we'll separate the technology into a separate company to first of all credit-proof it, so to protect the asset itself. And then when it has been separated out, we can, with a series of licensing agreements decide how it's to be exploited. One of the times when it can be really valuable is when you're looking to license in multiple jurisdictions. You have a company that we license to somebody in, say North America. You give Canadian and US rights to, to accompany to license that technology. And they may take off with it and run it on their own and be able to grow it in that way. Similarly, you may do something for Europe, and you might do something for Asia. So you break it up into a series of license agreements, and then have others do with it as they can to maximize the value.

Cheryl Hodgson [7:33]

Actually, I think that's a fascinating tool. It makes a lot of sense in technology. I've actually seen that to some extent with brands and branding. There's something called IP holding companies that some companies use out of Delaware, multinational brands, where they will actually hold all of the trademarks and brand names in one IP holding company and license it to subsidiaries in different countries and take back a royalty That is the income stream that generates so that it's taxed at a lower operating profit in status.

JP McAvoy [8:06]

That's right. So it's taxed at a lower rate. So when we talk about this, a big part of maximizing value is obviously reducing tax. So that's one effective way to do that. And then we talk about maximizing value as well, is to have perhaps leveraging or using others and that with what they're good at. So somebody might be good for marketing in a different jurisdiction, to allow them to take it and run with it. And that's going to maximize the value for you.

Cheryl Hodgson [8:29]

This is another thing, I don't know if you've ever run into this, but I've heard of two examples. And one is, actually was a winery up near Paso Robles and this was about six or seven years ago, I did a webinar workshop up there for wineries. It was all public knowledge and I can't remember the name of the winery, but the man was considered the legend of all the winemakers up there because he was the first one that really started putting out great wine in the Paso Robles area back 25 years ago. Somehow he lost his name in the company, because he had outside investors and was no longer the majority shareholder. And I just had a similar experience. I have a client that I formed a company for about six, seven years ago and she and the partner have decided that they're going to dissolve, no longer be partners. And the one good piece of advice I gave her because she had a really great name that she had used for 10 years was, we left the trademark and the name in her name and licensed it to the LLC. So now that's off the table when they dissolve or he leaves the company. He has no interest or rights in the name.

JP McAvoy [9:37]

Right there. Time and time again when people say the value that the attorney adds. That's invaluable what you did for them, because the business owner doesn't usually appreciate it, certainly at the outset what's actually occurring, but as you say, simply by separating the ownership of the name and then licensing it, you maintain control. I've had a handful of clients similarly be ecstatic with some advice I'd given them earlier on. As attorneys, we see situations like it's, it's not the first time for us to see a lot of these things. And so that's why we're able to advise a business owner, "look, you might want to protect this in this way, because this might happen. Yeah, I know everything's rosy right now."

Cheryl Hodgson [10:12]

Everybody thinks, "it'll never happen to me."

JP McAvoy [10:15]

"It never happened to me, it never happens." But as a lawyer, we've seen it, and we know how to protect people from it. A good example is a good operating agreement, or a good shareholder agreement, or a good partnership agreement for these people. when they're working together, to make sure all those things are discussed beforehand, in the event that if it actually does blow up or break up, they know what they can do with the actual assets.

Cheryl Hodgson [10:34]

I think that's important because many people know what it is. But why is it so important to have either an operating agreement for a limited liability company or shareholders' agreement for a closely held corporation?

JP McAvoy [10:48]

I think they're vital. Obviously a lawyer's going to say this. We see this for almost anything else. They are the operating manual for your business. And they entrench, and they're treated in high regard in law, certainly by the courts when they're properly done. So as to determine how the company is to be run, what's to be done with the company. So I call it the operating manual, it is there in good times and bad. And it's really important, especially in the bad times when things go awry to go back and say, "hey, look, what did we say was gonna happen?" A company needs money as an example. If a company needs that money, I see this time and time again, in the absence of an operating agreement or a shareholders agreement, dictating that shareholders will kick funds in, there's no legal requirement to fund a company. So I've had shareholders say, "look, that's it. That's all I'm putting in this company." And the company's died, it's died on the vine, because the shareholders weren't willing to continue to support it. You get a good shareholders agreement in place that makes it clear that yes, we may seek financing from elsewhere. But if we can't, we're going to keep this company alive. We're going to self-finance if need be. In the absence of a good shareholders agreement, that's not a legal requirement.

Cheryl Hodgson [11:48]

Wow, that's something I wouldn't have even thought of as important, but I think it's vital. Here's a modern day example back to my brand or trademark question. And this is personal only because I loved the brand and they're gone now. It was over 100 years old, which was Barneys Department Store founded out of New York like 120 years ago. And long story short, this has been all over the media, about six, eight months ago, the landlord in their New York, Madison Avenue location, raised the rent by $30 million in one year. And literally almost put them out of business overnight. So they went into a reorganization for bankruptcy. And they spent six months trying to find financing and purportedly they had all these investors lined up and it all sort of fell through at the last minute and literally was only like the first of December, they went into court and the bankruptcy judge ordered the entire company sold off overnight. And some kind of troll came in and bought the name out of the bankruptcy. And they've already licensed it to Saks Fifth Avenue. And Barneys as everyone has known it for over 100 years is over and gone. And the only thing left was the name. And that's a perfect example had somebody had licensed the name to the company, it wouldn't have been sold off, they could have started all over again. And now it's dead. And it was tragic, actually, I went into the store and I was almost in tears. Not because, it was a pretty high end store. But what made it special and unique, which was their brand was they launched many, many fashion designers who were nobody and unknown who went on to become famous. And that was the platform where many of those young brands got started. So it's so easy, you talked about building a legacy. And I think that's so important. Can you share a little bit more about that aspect of what you do? And how do you approach that part of the consulting process?

JP McAvoy [14:54]

I think you're touching on it right there. Because there's obviously the life of the business owner. And all the things the business owner's looking to accomplish during that time. A lot of times it's their baby, their creation. And you said Barneys, but it's something that business owners crave, they want to see that live on as well. First of all, just the mere pride of it. There's other reasons as well, a lot of times it's contributing to the livelihood of employees, it's contributing to the livelihood of communities. So there's an importance to a legacy in that regard as well. One of the fundamental natures of a corporation is, again, if it's properly structured and set up to survive, is its perpetual existence. So a corporation will survive if there's a plan in place for that. So that legacy involves that. I like to work with clients, and that's part of maximizing value as well, they know they're not gonna be around forever. "What does their exit look like?" The sooner you start planning that means to an end, thinking about what the exit looks like, the better the likelihood of it being successful. So I'll give an example for a business owner, we're saying to them, "is there a potential for you to sell to employees? Is there a management opportunity to sell this company? Are you looking to sell to a competitor?'' There's a lot of companies that are conglomerators, they'll buy different companies, so have an end goal in mind. And again, have the company structured for just that. Entrench it with agreements. Here's another example with a shareholders agreement. If the idea is to sell to a conglomerate in the future, make sure there's a shareholders agreement in place that forces all the shareholders to sell at the appropriate time when an offer is delivered. So that's the legacy for a company to think about what their exit's going to actually look like. And entrench it in the agreements. It protects the business owners and it protects the value of the business.

Cheryl Hodgson [15:32]

Do you do work with that from the very beginning, or is it something you develop as someone gets closer to deciding to exit?

JP McAvoy [15:41]

So usually when I start to work with a client, it's one of the things I talk about. So in the initial intake, I say, "what do you think?" A lot of times, they don't know. And that's fair enough as well. But I make sure it's something that's discussed. Because at a minimum, I want to ensure that we can bring other shareholders in, if need be. So that's another big way to inject into a company how to help see it grow. And then I say, "what's a potential sale here?" There are ways of introducing things like family trust to maximize a reduction in capital gains on a sale. So I'll look to say, "is there potential for there to be growth in this company? If so, do we need to implement a structure that's going to allow us to spread a capital gain in the future as well?" So early in the conversation, a lot of times people will say, "Great, JP, thanks for letting us know, you can introduce things like that at some point. Maybe not necessarily now," but I make sure we talk about it right from the beginning or as early as we can in the process.

Cheryl Hodgson [16:26]

You mentioned something about estate. Of the things I've seen happen, which is especially with husband and wife businesses is they'll form a company LLC. And either one of the spouses is not in the LLC at all, or the company, or they may have a share of it. But then there's no step beyond that to take care, going back to that perpetual life issue, the entity of the next step to make certain that there is either a will or trust so that ownership of those shares are dealt with and don't end up in a probate court in America somewhere.

JP McAvoy [17:04]

Absolutely. That's one of my concerns with a single member LLC, is "what's the succession for the company look like?" Or make sure it's been thought through. But who could take over who could run things, if need be. Ideally you're operating with a corporation with multiple shareholders and there's some kind of transition there. But if it's not in place, at least, so that there is some thinking about what would happen if a business owner died? Who could operate if need be, and what would the transition plan look like? Absolutely important. You say you don't want to have people argue about it, and maybe a judge deciding in a probate court where exactly that will finally be awarded, you're just gonna destroy the value of the company.

Cheryl Hodgson [17:37]

We don't want this to be all about the law. So can you share with the audience a bit more about your book? And when is it coming out soon?

JP McAvoy [17:48]

January 31, is the official launch date. And so the book itself is...

Cheryl Hodgson [17:51]

So this is your pre launch tour.

JP McAvoy [17:53]

This is my pre launch. Absolutely. I've started the circuit now. So Cheryl, thanks for allowing me to speak about it. Because in the book itself, I cite a number of examples of businesses that I've worked with, and I essentially tell their story, and what's allowed them to get to the spot where they are successful. And in it, I think there's a lesson, both from a legal perspective, to each of the things that I describe in it, but there's also sort of a business or life moral to it as well. For example, I talked about how, like you said, "Be prepared" an example of being prepared. I worked with a business owner that wasn't prepared and had a heart attack. And actually, he had a divorce for the third time. Three times divorced.

Cheryl Hodgson [18:31]

That's enough to give you a heart attack.

JP McAvoy [18:34]

That's to give you a heart attack! So we discussed what that would look like or what the situation might be. And so he took it, obviously some legal, we got, wills and things in place for him to address that and a shareholders agreement in place to address what would happen if he actually died. But we also put some life planning into place for him because he got much closer to his family at the same time, which is obviously important.

Cheryl Hodgson [18:52]

That's great, because I think that's where people underestimate the value of a good attorney. There's the legal aspect, but there is also the life aspect. Because I too, have seen that situation where people didn't have things in place, and then something happened and the consequences of that can be devastating.

JP McAvoy [19:14]

It's tragic. As attorneys, we see it and we see what it costs to have a judge decide things for you. If you don't have things planned, and there's a problem, you may have to take it to a judge. Just by necessity. The law is structured in a way that if we haven't set things up for ourselves properly, and there's no other way of having things determined, then you're gonna have a judge decide things for you. And that's unfortunate. It's costly to do it. And likely, it may very well end up with a result that you didn't want to see at the beginning.

Cheryl Hodgson [19:43]

That you didn't want. Absolutely. I say that to clients all the time. I'm working with a client right now they're trying to mediate a dispute. And I'm like, "there's nothing wrong with mediation, but you're also asking a stranger that knows nothing about you and nothing about your company or your business to make a decision. And you're rolling the dice." Because there's some good mediators, but there's some not so great mediators out there in my experience.

JP McAvoy [20:10]

You're just putting it into a form that it doesn't need to be with a little bit of planning and some and putting some proper paperwork in place. That's all it is. So you encourage people to get there. I say many times, "look, I get paid better if you don't do it."

Cheryl Hodgson [20:24]

Exactly, that's how I feel,

JP McAvoy [20:26]

You see people all the time, "I can fix it for you. Of course, I'd rather see you have it done right to begin with, and I can guide you there if you wish. But please know that if you don't do it that way, and it comes back to me, I'm likely to be paid better later on to fix it for you. So decide, either pay me now or pay me later."

Cheryl Hodgson [20:41]

What's the old saying? "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." A lot better than a pound of cure. So tell me about The Millionaire's Podcast.

JP McAvoy [20:51]

The Millionaire's Podcast I mean, wonderful platform.

Cheryl Hodgson [20:56]

Yes, it's fabulous.

JP McAvoy [20:57]

And it's an opportunity for experts such as yourself and myself to get together and talk about issues and have listeners benefit in the experience. Both you and at our hourly rates, a conversation for a client sitting around a table would be quite expensive. They get the benefit of the conversation we're having on the podcast. I do the exact same thing on my podcast, like to bring on thought leaders, experts. I work with a lot of accountants. I get a lot of work from accountants and lawyers. We have them on the show and we talk about the range of issues that a client growing and selling their business is going to be faced with. Eventually hopefully selling their business so they can get some sense of what that looks like through the podcast itself. And it's just just talking to their own advisors.

Cheryl Hodgson [21:34]

Well, if there was one piece of advice you could give a business owner who's growing their company. I know that's a broad question. But based on the things you've run into, and you deal with every day as an attorney, what would be the probably the most common obstacle you see that business owners either overlook or don't think about?

JP McAvoy [21:55]

I think the biggest thing is for a business owner to get advice. You and I, as attorneys, we look at things and we see them and how many times do we look and say, "I wish I had gotten my hands on this earlier, I could have done something more at a different time"? People are afraid to talk to attorneys. They think that we're so expensive to talk with, as we just finished saying, obviously there's a cost, but we can be a lot more expensive if you haven't done things. So I always say to people, and again, through the benefit of the podcast, I'm saying, "get advice earlier in the stage. If it's possible, do so because you're gonna benefit from the long run."

Cheryl Hodgson [22:28]

That's good advice. Well, before we wrap up today, I want to turn to a couple of other issues which are a little bit more personal. I always love to share with the audience, something that people might not realize about you. One of which I know already from personal experience, you throw a mean axe.

JP McAvoy [22:46]

Yes, absolutely. We'll have to maybe describe that a bit more but yes. And as an axe thrower, I think it's my Canadian heritage. We're in the outdoors so often, but yes, I certainly enjoy all things physical, but the axe throwing has been a fun pursuit of mine in the past, and I'm glad we had a chance to do it together.

Cheryl Hodgson [22:02]

I share that with the audience because we were in a workshop together where we met. And we were all surprised that we were taken on a little adventure, unknowingly. And we went to a place where you throw axes at a wall! And, of course, I don't think I ever hit the wall once. And JP was up there just Bullseye every time!

JP McAvoy [23:25]

Flipping that axe.

Cheryl Hodgson [23:26]

And also I understand you play in a band?

JP McAvoy [23:30]

Yes, I do. Thank you very much, a shout out to The Broken Windows is the name of my band. You'd label us as a, I guess we're not a garage band because we actually rent space and jam at the space itself. But we gig on occasion and we call ourselves Late Alternative Rock. Rock Wannabe-Stars. So a lot of fun to get out. I'm a singer and guitarist so I like to get out there.

Cheryl Hodgson [23:51]

Lead singer!

JP McAvoy [23:53]

Lead singer. That's right.

Cheryl Hodgson [23:54]

Oh my god, I can't wait to come to a show. That's gonna be fun. So, if there's one thing on your bucket list, either personally or professionally, and you could have two, but is there anything that you have the itch that you dream of really experiencing that you haven't so far?

JP McAvoy [24:11]

Oh, what a great question. I've got a whole list of things, you just want one or two? Yeah, I'm planning one right now actually, that should be fun to share with your listeners. I'm a golfer as well. I like to golf. As does my father and we are right now planning to play in a golf tournament in Ireland in the mid summer 2020. He's a little bit older than me obviously.

Cheryl Hodgson [24:36]

I hope so.

JP McAvoy [24:37]

I would think so, but his game is still pretty decent and mine I guess will hold up.

Cheryl Hodgson [24:44]

What's your handicap?

JP McAvoy [24:45]

I'm an 11.

Cheryl Hodgson [24:46]

Well, that's pretty good.

JP McAvoy [24:48]

Enough to hold up anyway. So we'll be age and category specific and I think it'll be a lot of fun to compete in an international golf event.

Cheryl Hodgson [24:54]

How exciting! Now where in Ireland is this?

JP McAvoy [24:58]

It's at five courses actually around Ireland. It's played at some of the big courses in Ireland.

Cheryl Hodgson [25:03]

So this is a Irish tour.

JP McAvoy [25:05]

It's essentially an Irish tour. They set up a golf tournament called the Causeway Tournament every year for international people to come and play the different courses.

Cheryl Hodgson [25:13]

Okay, and I assume there'll be a pub at the 18th hole.

JP McAvoy [25:17]

I think there'll be a 19th hole after each specific round. I'm sure it'll be a 19th hole.

Cheryl Hodgson [25:22]

A 19th hole. That's it. Okay. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us. Oh, do have anything you'd love to share with our guests, the audience of how they can reach you. If you have a special gift for them, how they could make sure they get a copy of your book.

JP McAvoy [25:37]

Oh, thanks for the opportunity Cheryl. Yes, of course. So we mentioned the book. It's coming out probably about the same time that the people will be listening to this. They can find the book at www.JPMcAvoy.com, And on the website for the book, you'll see that as well, but I also have something I call the Millionaire's Lawyer Assessments, which allow people to go through and consider where they're at in terms of their own business right now. And some of the ways that they might be able to fix things up. Through that they could leverage the book itself and then eventually we're gonna have an online course that people can take to to learn some of the things that We're talking about here today.

Cheryl Hodgson [26:08]

Okay, great. And is the assessment available at the same location, the same URL.

JP McAvoy [26:12]

you'll find everything at www.JPMcAvoy.com

Cheryl Hodgson [26:18]

And we will put that in the show notes for those of you who are listening to the audio and don't have the opportunity to write it down. So it will be in the show notes. And I want to thank you so much, JP, it was wonderful having you here. And would you come back again at some point in the future?

JP McAvoy [26:34]

Cheryl, thanks so much for having me on, and of course, I'd love to be back. Whenever we connect, it's always good. I think we always create and give value to all those around us.

Cheryl Hodgson [26:43]

I hope so. And it's always a joy to speak with you. And good luck with the book and I'm tuning in everyone to The Millionaire's Podcast. I think you'll learn a lot. And welcome and have a great day.

JP McEvoy is the Founder and Managing Partner of ConductLaw, practicing corporate and commercial law. JP acts for clients buying, growing and selling their business. Representing a diverse range of corporations in Canada, the United States, and Asia. JP is the host of The Millionaire's Lawyer, a five-star rated podcast on a variety of topics from business, legal, and accounting perspectives.

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